tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post3999824081633263980..comments2023-09-27T03:56:28.403-05:00Comments on la nouvelle théologie: IslamFr. D.L. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-86577561514757286372007-05-04T21:08:00.000-05:002007-05-04T21:08:00.000-05:00Here is my newest post on Islam. It's Part Two of...Here is <A HREF="http://ressourcement.blogspot.com/2007/05/islam-part-two.html" REL="nofollow">my newest post on Islam.</A> It's Part Two of this post.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-76079042013459098242007-04-29T11:38:00.000-05:002007-04-29T11:38:00.000-05:00Gabe,Drop me an email so I have your correct email...Gabe,<BR/><BR/>Drop me an email so I have your correct email and I shall send you an invitation. I'm not sure if I sent it to the correct email. It's the one it gave me off your blog.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-50686711929642560802007-04-29T11:28:00.000-05:002007-04-29T11:28:00.000-05:00I plan on making a long response or an entire new ...I plan on making a long response or an entire new post on Islam, a Part Two. This is important to do to address some of the points Christopher has been making including others on his post and mine. I need to clarify some things on my end.<BR/><BR/>In short though before I have time to do that the answer to Chris' question, so as not to keep you in suspense, is the following.<BR/><BR/>A Muslim has to ignore a large portion of his religion, both contained within its holy text, the Koran, and their tradition, the sayings and teachings from the final or seal of the prophet. And a large number of Muslims do exactly that.<BR/><BR/>I challenge everyone to go and read both the Koran and Hadith for themselves.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-36417356555788487942007-04-29T11:26:00.000-05:002007-04-29T11:26:00.000-05:00Christopher said...Taking both of these into accou...Christopher said...<BR/><BR/>Taking both of these into account, my question (again, familiar to some here) follows. Before I pose it, though, I want to note this: it is provocative, but it remains a question, not an assertion. Having said that... : How is it possible for an American Muslim (or one of any country in which religious freedom is constitutional) to be faithful both to his religion and to his country?<BR/><BR/>I think the best answer would be to pose the question to . . . Muslim American citizens. <BR/><BR/>Q: Is it just me, or does it strike anybody else here as kind of odd that we are having these conversations w/o the personal contribution of those we're talking about. David, what happened to your friend?<BR/><BR/>Although I think if a American Muslim stumbled onto this conversation and read of the comparison of his religion with National Socialism, it might influence his desire to join in on the conversation. IMHO.<BR/><BR/>Chris -- I've been doing some reading and research at the library. If I run into good books on addressing this issue I'll pass on what I can find.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-14259488624730383722007-04-28T23:26:00.000-05:002007-04-28T23:26:00.000-05:00Wow! Quite the thread.My questions about Islam are...Wow! Quite the thread.<BR/><BR/>My questions about Islam are similar (yet distinct from) those raised by David. As he and some others here know from private correspondence, my question regarding Islam boils down to the following:<BR/><BR/>1. From what I understand, every school of Islam which is viewed as orthodox by other Islamic schools of thought includes the "doctrine" that Sharia should be spread across the globe.<BR/><BR/>2. Also from what I understand, Sharia entails a number of things, among them the denial of religious freedom (which can vary from outright persecution of non-Muslims to legal benefits for Muslims).<BR/><BR/>Taking both of these into account, my question (again, familiar to some here) follows. Before I pose it, though, I want to note this: it is provocative, but it remains a question, not an assertion. Having said that... : How is it possible for an American Muslim (or one of any country in which religious freedom is constitutional) to be faithful both to his religion and to his country?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09091653573582292028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-68400087176592796162007-04-28T12:46:00.000-05:002007-04-28T12:46:00.000-05:00David,I'd be happy to join the blog. let me now e...David,<BR/>I'd be happy to join the blog. let me now exactly what that means when you get a chance. Thanks a lot.<BR/><BR/>I'm sympathetic to what Christopher says above. But I also know that the Koran certainly seems to invite certain Wahhabist interpretations. <BR/><BR/>More important than the question of the authnenticity of Wahhabist Islam is the question of why it has proven attractive to so many. <BR/><BR/>Part of this certainly has to do with the nature of certain Islamic texts and traditions. But part of it also has to do with recent political history. It is through this history that Americans really already HAVE entered into the debate within Islam. The argument within Islam cannot be understood apart from the role of the United States in the history of Muslim communities, especially in the Middle East. The doctrinal cannot be separated from the realm of geo-politics.speakingcorpsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927298398549659202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-90205555869946103402007-04-28T04:29:00.000-05:002007-04-28T04:29:00.000-05:00Gabe asks "Are you aware of traditions of mystical...<I>Gabe asks "Are you aware of traditions of mystical Islam, or traditions of Islamic philosophy?" Yes of course. In fact Christopher and another friend talked about this in our private correspondence. I have never made the claim that the radical/militant wing of Islam is the only school or form of Islam. There are one billion + Muslims with many, many different schools of thought.</I><BR/><BR/>I guess this is where David and I part ways -- in that, on one hand, David asserts here that (militant) Wahabbism IS "orthodox" Islam; on the other hand, "there are one billion Muslims with many different schools of thought." <BR/><BR/>Sorry Dave, but I think that this is like "having your cake and eating it to." If as you say "to be Muslim means <I>becoming more radical/militant if you take your faith seriously</I>" -- then it must follow, logically, that those Muslims who repudidate violence cannot be considered "true Muslims." <BR/><BR/>If the militant/radical branches of Islam "are legitimate and orthodox Muslims" -- what do you consider those Muslims who vehemently disagree and repudiate the radical and militant branch as un-Islamic?<BR/><BR/>It comes down to this: there is a crisis of identity, a battle within Islam over what is 'true' Islam -- my concern is in your agreeing with the Taliban and Osama Bin Ladin and their assertion as to what is <I>authentic</I>, and in so doing, give credence to their argument.<BR/><BR/><I>"I am American convert to Islam who latter left the Islamic faith and by the grace of God became Christian and finally Catholic."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't believe you have ever confided this and it's certainly news to me, but it does bring an added dimension to this discussion.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps it is because as you said, you have seen Islam through different eyes -- by way of the militant and the radical -- that you approach it differently. <BR/><BR/>it was through Louis Massignon and Thomas Merton's correspondence with Abdul Azis, and my later friendshiop with Sufis, that is the 'lens' through which I interpret and encounter Islam. I've read Spencer, and many others like him; I understand the nature of the threat -- but it is because of my aquaintance with so many religious Muslims who are <I>not</I> like you describe (indeed, the furthest thing from Spencer's characterization) that I am personally resistant to your equasion of Islam with Nazism at the root. <BR/><BR/>It's because I learned about Islam through the interpretation of Louis Massignon, who returned to his Catholic faith <I>by way of</I> his study of Islam and Al-Hallaj. I think we'll continue to disagree on our approach and understanding of Islam, but I have a new sense of where you're coming from.Christopher Blosserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385159494196923575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-51654115843404805242007-04-27T19:52:00.000-05:002007-04-27T19:52:00.000-05:00Gabe,Great recommendations above. I follow you......Gabe,<BR/><BR/>Great recommendations above. I follow you... <BR/> <BR/>I have read only one book by Rowan Williams, but was very impressed by it. I have a immense respect for the man and shall attempt to find the lecture you recommend. As you know I follow the thought of the Radical Orthodox camp... I shall surely check out Milbank's thought on this topic. In fact I hope I can make an independent post of his & Milbank's thought on the topic. <BR/> <BR/>It's funny I have been thinking about Charles De Foucault in these days. Great minds think alike.<BR/> <BR/>Gabe - I have sent you an invitation to join the blog. I hope you accept.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-77109980518538961222007-04-27T17:40:00.000-05:002007-04-27T17:40:00.000-05:00David,I do take your point about the orthodoxy of ...David,<BR/>I do take your point about the orthodoxy of Wahhabism. I shouldn't have said it was a distortion so much as an interpretation, which, unfortunately, has a lot of support. Still, Salafism and Wahhabism didn't become popular till the 18th century, and have only exploded in our post-colonial period. So even if these movements can properly be called Islamic, we still need to ask why they emerged when they did, and to what extent they are "modern/fundamentalist" as opposed to "traditionalist." <BR/><BR/>The idea of fundamentalism as a modern movement, the kind of diabolic twin of secularism, is very important, it seems to me. <BR/><BR/>You might like an article at Jesusradicals.com by John Milbank, called "Sovereignty, Empire, Capital, Terror," which connects Islamic fundamentalism, Protestant fundamentalism, and secularisation. Rowan Williams also had a fine piece about fundamentalism and secularisation, delivered in a lecture when he was still archbishop of Wales. He spoke about how both of these modern movements reduce religion to propositions to which one is asked to give simple assent. I think if you did a google search for Rowan Williams and secularism, you could find it. In fact, I now remember that this was a "Raymond Williams Lecture" delivered about 5 years ago.<BR/><BR/>Massignon seems fascinating. I don't know too much about him, but I do know that he wrote a book about a Muslim mystic called "Hallaj," who was crucified in the 10th century for saying something like, "I am the truth," as Jesus did. <BR/><BR/>Massignon, I think, founded a sort of missionary society for Catholics in Muslim Africa--really a kind of society of Catholic/Muslim fraternity--founded in the spirit of Charles De Foucault and also of St. Francis, who had spent a lot of time talking fraternally with Muslim princes during one of the later (and less justified) crusades.speakingcorpsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927298398549659202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-39045134171372536352007-04-27T13:39:00.000-05:002007-04-27T13:39:00.000-05:00Gabe - thanks for referring me to the thought of F...Gabe - thanks for referring me to the thought of French Catholic scholar Louis Massignon. I shall do some research on him.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-9353811268222931342007-04-27T13:32:00.000-05:002007-04-27T13:32:00.000-05:00Gabe asks "Are you aware of traditions of mystical...Gabe asks "Are you aware of traditions of mystical Islam, or traditions of Islamic philosophy?" Yes of course. In fact Christopher and another friend talked about this in our private correspondence. I have never made the claim that the radical/militant wing of Islam is the only school or form of Islam. There are one billion + Muslims with many, many different schools of thought.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-22917713905407786002007-04-27T13:11:00.000-05:002007-04-27T13:11:00.000-05:00Gabe,Fr. David Burrell is a brilliant Catholic pri...Gabe,<BR/><BR/>Fr. David Burrell is a brilliant Catholic priest and a good friend of another friend of mine, Dr. John Wright. Do a search on my blog for Burrell and you shall see a couple posts on him.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-42956098915949411652007-04-27T12:56:00.000-05:002007-04-27T12:56:00.000-05:00Gabe,I just read and posted your comments above. ...Gabe,<BR/><BR/>I just read and posted your comments above. We are in agreement. Thank you brother for your insightful thoughts.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-12120317449911047562007-04-27T12:55:00.000-05:002007-04-27T12:55:00.000-05:00I see now that you mentioned your personal experie...I see now that you mentioned your personal experience in your post, and obviously I didn't get all the way down to that point in the post. Sorry about that--I read through the doctrinal summaries (which I found informative) and then I stopped to register my objections. Again, I do stick to those objections--not really in disagreement with anything you're saying here, but in order to insist that our assessment of Islam has to be made with relation to recent political history. <BR/><BR/>Are you aware of traditions of mystical Islam, or traditions of Islamic philosophy? The great Catholic scholar David Burrell writes so well about Ibn-Sina...<BR/><BR/>There's also the work of the epochal French Catholic scholar Louis Massignon, who wrote about Islamic mysticism (and also wrote searchingly about how to evangelize Muslims in the Middle East--not first by teaching doctrines, but by being with them and in their presence incarnating the Body of Christ, showing Christ in action rather than talking about Him...<BR/><BR/>Thanks also for the mention of Scola--I have in fact visited the Oasis site, and it seems very promising.speakingcorpsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927298398549659202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-26070043624379552552007-04-27T12:41:00.000-05:002007-04-27T12:41:00.000-05:00speakingcorpse says Islam "has been massively dist...speakingcorpse says Islam "has been massively distorted by the Wahhabist fundamentalism." This the point Christopher and I get going back and forth on. I don't think Wahhabism or other radical/militant branches or schools Islam is a distortion of Islam. They are legitimate and orthodox Muslims. Their teachings are rooted from within the Koran and the Hadith most importantly, but also rooted within the Islamic Tradition and history of their religion. The origin of their thought is rooted from within the beginning of their religion.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-58060457945437429042007-04-27T12:33:00.000-05:002007-04-27T12:33:00.000-05:00David,Thanks a lot for your comments, and for your...David,<BR/>Thanks a lot for your comments, and for your correction my presumptions. <BR/><BR/>It sounds like you have had some remarkable experiences. Surely you know about all of this in a way that I do not.<BR/><BR/>I would still wonder, though, whether even radical Islam in the U.S. (practiced by Americans, or even by immigrants to America from the Middle East) is really not something quite different from any form of Islam in the Muslim world. <BR/><BR/>I would submit that it is almost impossible for any religion in the United States to not be a form of Protestantism--that is, passionately held internal convictions that are brandished externally as a badge of identity, in opposition to other similarly constituted groups. <BR/><BR/>I would suggest that Catholicism (including perhaps my own) and Islam in the U.S. (even and perhaps especially when they are ANTI-U.S.) are nearly always variants on this mode of impotent Protestant identity-formation and dissent. Certainly I think this is a big part of what goes on at First Things.<BR/><BR/>The political situation is so extremely screwed up in the Middle East that I'm not sure the American experience of Islam can have much connection to the decision of a Palestinian to support Hamas, or the decision of a Shi'a Lebanese to support Hezbollah. <BR/><BR/>This is not at all dismiss your experience. But it is to suggest that a big part of your experience would have to be its American-ness, its taking place in the American "market-place" of religions and identities (from which, again, I do not at all exempt myself--I should say that I am in fact Jewish, although I am passionately in love with Jesus and the Catholic tradition). <BR/><BR/>The American context may distinguish American radical Islam from the Islam of groups with similar creeds in the Middle East. (And this separation is part of the American connection to Islam--a connection mediated first of all by political violence.)<BR/><BR/>One thing I'm glad we agree on is the primacy of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. I cannot strongly enough express my disgust with the state of Israel and the way it has exploited the Jewish tradition and the memory of the victims of the Holocaust. <BR/><BR/>Anyway, I'm very glad for this exchange and grateful for your friendliness to me.<BR/><BR/>--Gabe Alkon ("speakingcorpse" being my screen name on a disreputable blog at which I sometimes post.)speakingcorpsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927298398549659202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-80483099556266726292007-04-27T09:22:00.000-05:002007-04-27T09:22:00.000-05:00speakingcorpse,Welcome to my blog. Thank you for ...speakingcorpse,<BR/><BR/>Welcome to my blog. Thank you for well thought out comments. I agree with most everything you write here, but I should clarify some things for you.<BR/> <BR/>I am American convert to Islam who latter left the Islamic faith and by the grace of God became Christian and finally Catholic. To be sure I am not a "U.S. Christian contemplating Islam in the abstract." This is something I lived, it is something I lived. These are things I know which come from my own experiences.<BR/> <BR/>I met radical/militant Muslims face-to-face in this country, right here in the U.S. These experiences of having to deal with the real life consequences of becoming a radical/militant Muslim myself is one of the big reasons why I left the Islamic faith.<BR/> <BR/>Additionally as I stated in the first paragraph this entire discussion began behind the scenes about the historical and living context of what is happening in the world today. This was an interfaith dialog with Catholics and an American Muslim friend. I sent an ad out about a movie - Islam: What the West Needs to Know and from there a discussion began. This conversation really took off when an American Muslim friend through me stated the following.<BR/> <BR/>If we truly want to stabilize the Middle East, we are need to stop focusing on the periphery (Iraq and Iran) and focus on the real problem: the Arab/Israeli conflict - or more specifically, the Palestinian Problem. As long as Israel insists on violating international agreements (UN Resolutions 242 and 348) which it is a party to and continues to illegally occupy Palestinian land and oppress the Palestinians, all with our complete support, there will be no stability in the Middle East. We're wasting our time and many lives with Iraq and Iran.<BR/> <BR/>Lastly I think its important to ask, as you did, what can we as Catholics (or non-Catholic Christians) do about Islam? I suggest (a serious proposal) that we discuss the Holy Father's Lecture at Regensburg. This is where we should begin with ourselves and our Muslim friends. <BR/> <BR/>I would also suggest that you and others check out the new journal Oasis which is linked under my publications section of my blog. I have dear friend deeply involved with this project. If you haven't read the pdf file (one of the first links) of H. E. Cardinal Angelo Scola I would highly suggest that you do so.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-39952653952852326012007-04-26T23:52:00.000-05:002007-04-26T23:52:00.000-05:00There's something disturbing about this entire dis...There's something disturbing about this entire discussion.<BR/><BR/>I do not discount the dangerous aspects of Islam identified here. <BR/><BR/>But modern Islam--the particular union of post 18th-century fundamentalism, very much like Protestant evengelicalism, with a nationalist ideology--this modern version of Islam must be understood in historical context. <BR/><BR/>(Just like developments in Christianity have to be understood in historical context; Protestant fundamentalism is in part a reaction to the dissolution of traditional communities and the attendant atomisation of individuality under capitalism; ultramontane Catholicism is a reaction against similar political-economic conditions of the late 19th century, and against late Protestantism, too.) <BR/><BR/>Now, for modern Islam, the relevant political economic context is the colonial conquest of the Middle East during the first World War, the rise of and then the defeat of anti-colonial pan-Arab nationalism in the 1950's through the 1970's, and the subsequent rule of the U.S. by proxy regimes throughout the region (today, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia). <BR/><BR/>These are grotesquely corrupt regimes which brutally steal money and life from their citizenry. And these regimes are propped up by billions of dollars of U.S. aid and/or petro-dollars. <BR/><BR/>Now, I do not at all mean to deny the manifestly violent aspects of Islam. But I wonder why this discussion seems to contemplate Islam in the abstract, as if it were a universal transhistorical phenomenon, and not a living historical religion--one that has been massively distorted by the Wahhabist fundamentalism that is the state religion of an obscenely rich United States proxy (Saudi Arabia). <BR/><BR/>It is simply unrealistic to look at Islam as if it were a set of abstract rules and not a historical religion.<BR/><BR/>Worse, there is something disturbing about U.S. Christians contemplating Islam in the abstract, as if Islam can be separated from US and looked at "objectively."<BR/><BR/>As Catholics in the United States, what is OUR relation to Islam? <BR/><BR/>I would submit that we are too CLOSE to it, politically and historically, to simply assess its various doctrinal implications and their possible reformability and/or compatibility with our way of thinking.<BR/><BR/>We are part of Islam right now, because our country has been for 100 years deeply implicated in the colonial project, and just 4 years ago launched an unprovoked war of aggression against millions of people (who, not coincidentally, happened to be practitioners of Islam).<BR/><BR/>So what, as Christians, are we to do about Islam?<BR/><BR/>The first thing to do is to recognize that the government that speaks in our name has made the lives of millions of Muslims much worse, not just by attacking Iraq, but by supporting corrupt client states. We need to recognize that the U.S. government is immensely more powerful than any Islamic organization, and that the regimes we support in the Middle East have systematically shut off all avenues for political activism, except the mosque.<BR/><BR/>This last is the key point. The dangerous variant of fundamentalist Islam has arisen among people who, partly as a consequence of OUR government's policies, have been mired in a state of deep political despair. Under authoritarian regimes, with no economic opportunities, Muslims look to their religion as the last hope for political and social transformation. Rudimentary background study of Hamas and Hezbollah will show you that the terrorist acts and the religious convictions of these groups are NOT what has won them support; it is their effectiveness in standing up for, and setting up basic infrastructure for, marginalized communities; both groups have only appeared in the last 20 years.<BR/><BR/>Again, none of you seems to be aware that before "Islam" was the object of American fears, it was SECULAR Arab nationalism, led by Gamal Nasser and later by Arafat; the failure of pan-Arab nationalism has set the stage for more recent Islamic politics.<BR/><BR/>The distortions of fundamentalist theo-politics that we are so afraid of must be understood in the context of a situation that WE have helped to create. <BR/><BR/>----------<BR/><BR/>Christian reflection must begin with repentance, especially when Christians would judge the religious convictions of those who have not been reached by the Gospel.speakingcorpsehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04927298398549659202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-22569291697597987272007-04-26T12:42:00.000-05:002007-04-26T12:42:00.000-05:00Also let us consider the thought of Belloc and Che...Also let us consider the thought of Belloc and Chesterton on this topic.<BR/><BR/>http://www.tcrnews2.com/IslamBelloc06.htmlFr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-23223189976896030662007-04-26T12:39:00.000-05:002007-04-26T12:39:00.000-05:00Articles of interest from TCRnews.comhttp://tcrnew...Articles of interest from TCRnews.com<BR/><BR/>http://tcrnews2.com/Birds_Trojan.html<BR/><BR/>http://tcrnews2.com/Christian_moslem08.html<BR/><BR/>http://tcrnews2.com/dialogue_tolerance.htmlFr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-17381824837372781662007-04-26T12:34:00.000-05:002007-04-26T12:34:00.000-05:00I haven't yet read Fr. Neuhaus to Bernard Lewis - ...I haven't yet read Fr. Neuhaus to Bernard Lewis - "Why Aren’t Muslims Like Us?" First Things June/July 2003. Hopefully it's on-line and if so I will give you feed-back on it.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-46094898848244692112007-04-26T12:04:00.000-05:002007-04-26T12:04:00.000-05:00Christopher,This "wing" or "dark side" is authenti...Christopher,<BR/><BR/>This "wing" or "dark side" is authentic ISLAM itself. That's doesn't mean all Muslims fall into the various radical/militant camps though. There are moderate Muslims who reject and/or ignore this portion of their authentic teachings. <BR/><BR/>You went on to ask me the following questions and here is my response.<BR/><BR/>Q: Is there such a thing as a "moderate" Nazi? YES OF COURSE.<BR/><BR/>Q: Is there such a thing as a "moderate" Muslim? YES OF COURSE.<BR/><BR/>Q: Should we hold suspect Muslims who reside in this country as being sympathetic to terrorism? YES BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE HAVE TO HERD THEM INTO CONCENTRATION CAMPS THOUGH.<BR/><BR/>Q: Does Islam = National Socialism? YES B/C WITHIN ISLAM THERE IS A RADICAL POLITICAL IDEOLOGY WHICH IS ROOTED FROM WITHIN THE KORAN AND TEACHINGS OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (p.b.u.h.). THIS IS NOT SOMETHING ADDED TO THE RELIGION BUT IS INTEGRAL TO IT. IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO DISPOSE OR DISCOUNT THIS WING OR SIDE (DARK) OF ISLAM AND NOT DISCREDIT THE REVELATION OF GOD AND TEACHINGS OF THE FINAL PROPHET. FOR MUSLIMS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE REVELATION AND THE TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD (p.b.u.h.). YOU EITHER FOLLOW OR YOU DON'T.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-79534699638011583082007-04-26T10:19:00.000-05:002007-04-26T10:19:00.000-05:00Can there ever be a true dialog with the Irreconci...<I>Can there ever be a true dialog with the Irreconcilable Wing of Islam? No, I afraid we live in a "fallen world" and only a bullet to the heads of the radical/militant Muslims will work. There will never be peace with them. Our two world-views are not compatible.<BR/><BR/>Is any type of authentic reform possible in Islam? No, there is a "Dark Side of Islam" that will always be with us because this "Dark Side" is rooted or anchored from within their own holy book, the Koran, and the sayings and teachings of their prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.).</I><BR/><BR/>Again, David -- we run into the same disconnect I pointed out in our private correspondence. <BR/><BR/>You take issue with what you call the "irreconcilable wing" of Islam. No dispute there, although the people I take issue with are those who take this "wing" or "dark side" to be authentic ISLAM itself (rather than a perversion), and so voice their criticisms in such a manner. <BR/><BR/>Again, the conclusions of Samir Kahil about reform:<BR/><BR/><I>It is important not to confuse Islam with Islamism, but it is just as important to urge Muslims to reject Islamism a san alteration of authentic Islam and to counter this violent and invasive tendency.</I><BR/><BR/>and what Tawfik Hamid asserts (the possibility of establishing "a theologically-rigorous Islam that teaches peace" -- presumably without jettisoning the Koran or disavowing Mohammad, since Tawfik remains a Muslim)<BR/><BR/>is something different than a general condemnation of Islam <I>as such</I>. <BR/><BR/>Both Samir Khalil and Tawfik Hamid -- and I think Pope Benedict as well -- would reject your assertion (made in past conversation) that: "To be Muslim means becoming more radical/militant if you take your faith seriously." Which is to say the only way of stemming the Muslim tide is to persuade Muslims to NOT "take their faith seriously" -- to be lukewarm.<BR/><BR/>Fr. Neuhaus responds to that notion:<BR/><BR/><I>Yet more troubling is the message that Islam, in order to become less of a threat to the world, must relativize its claim to possess the truth. That plays directly into the hands of Muslim rigorists who pose as the defenders of the uncompromised and uncompromisible truth and who call for death to the infidels. If Islam is to become tolerant and respectful of other religions, it must be as the result of a development that comes from within the truth of Islam, not as a result of relativizing or abandoning that truth. Is Islam capable of such a religious development? Nobody knows. But, if the choice is between compromising Islamic truth or a war of civilizations, it is almost certain that the winner among Muslims will be the hard-core Islamism that Lewis rightly views as such a great threat.<BR/><BR/>Christianity is more, not less, vibrantly Christian as a result of coming to understand more fully the mysterious and loving ways of God in His dealings also with non-Christians. Although the story of this development is complex, the important truth is that tolerance and mutual respect are religious, not secular, achievements. I will say it again: the reason we do not kill one another over our disagreements about the will of God is that we believe it is against the will of God to kill one another over our disagreements about the will of God. Christians have come to believe that. We must hope that more and more Muslims will come to believe that. That will not happen, however, if they are told that coming to believe that will make them less faithful Muslims. Or, as Bernard Lewis puts it, that they become relativists.</I><BR/><BR/>Fr. Neuhaus to Bernard Lewis. "Why Aren’t Muslims Like Us?"<BR/>First Things June/July 2003Christopher Blosserhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08385159494196923575noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-79463823591859236872007-04-26T06:07:00.000-05:002007-04-26T06:07:00.000-05:00He is truly risen!Many thanks for your kind messag...He is truly risen!<BR/><BR/>Many thanks for your kind message... You'll be in my prayers.<BR/><BR/>Yrs<BR/>RS (ROBERT SPENCER is the director of Jihad Watch, a project of the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and the author of several bestselling books on Islamic jihad.)Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-28115023222866953892007-04-26T01:55:00.000-05:002007-04-26T01:55:00.000-05:00Additionally the links I have provided in this pos...Additionally the links I have provided in this post was to cover down on some that you missed. The positions they take vary greatly from author to author. Taken collectively with the links you have provided gives folks a nice introduction to this topic.Fr. D.L. Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.com