tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post6433406878628060266..comments2023-09-27T03:56:28.403-05:00Comments on la nouvelle théologie: Hell - Barron, Voris, Martin, Jersak, Dart, Lazar and AlfeyevFr. D.L. Joneshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17048377154825646232noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-7785554932375086112013-01-09T20:43:47.262-06:002013-01-09T20:43:47.262-06:00Thank you, Jules. I agree entirely. I seem to re...Thank you, Jules. I agree entirely. I seem to recall one of the Jesuits' maxims as being assuming the best intentions about every person. I wish I knew how St. Ignatius said it.<br /><br />I agree with the contention of this blog that the East has a lot to say to the West regarding this subject. While the East has no definitive model regarding much of anything in theology and preferring "mystery" (and this is a good thing), I personally find the "River of Fire" thesis compelling myself.<br /><br />Sometimes, in my more somber and pessimistic moments, I come to conclusion the only way the Church can reclaim the world is a thorough ressourcement from the Orthodox Churches - only possible with full reunification of the Churches.<br /><br />I can only pray and hope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-58455069433138582142012-12-14T00:14:42.450-06:002012-12-14T00:14:42.450-06:00Thanks David! Voris's critique of Fr. Barron ...Thanks David! Voris's critique of Fr. Barron and Von Balthasar is one of the most intellectually dishonest I've seen in some time. Not because he's necessarily wrong, but because he wholly fails to address what they actually say. Instead, he addresses what they "must" be saying. <br /><br />The crux of their argument as I understand it (and wholly unaddressed by Voris) is this: The Church prays that all are saved, and what the Church prays for Christians must hope for. <br /><br />And a related point (again unaddressed by Voris) is this: The Church teaches that we cannot know with certainty that any particular person is eternally damned, and we can therefore hope that each particular person is saved. If we can hope that each and every particular person is saved, we can hope that all of them are.<br /><br />And if there is hope, there must be prayer. If there is prayer, there must be hope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-3086837845197961312012-12-13T19:30:44.457-06:002012-12-13T19:30:44.457-06:00I started off really wanting to be on Father Barro...I started off really wanting to be on Father Barron's side but have to say that I found Michael Voris more convincing.<br /><br />Ultimately, doesn't it boil down to this: Regardless of how many other people are or are not going to hell, I might very well end up there.Jules Aiméhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08262535377454858987noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11834527.post-7611301753221952652012-12-11T06:09:20.598-06:002012-12-11T06:09:20.598-06:00Thanks for this post and all the links. I must sa...Thanks for this post and all the links. I must say we need the dogmatic and reasoned debate and the opinions from both sides. Their reasonable arguments are part of what establishes our grasp of the depth of the mystery. There's probably too much posturing in this debate.<br /><br />I've always appreciated St. Leonard of Port Maurice who recognizes the importance of the possibility that many are in Hell:<br />"What is the use of knowing whether few or many are saved? Saint Peter says to us, "Strive by good works to make your election sure." When Saint Thomas Aquinas's sister asked him what she must do to go to heaven, he said, "You will be saved if you want to be." I say the same thing to you, and here is proof of my declaration. No one is damned unless he commits mortal sin: that is of faith. And no one commits mortal sin unless he wants to: that is an undeniable theological proposition. Therefore, no one goes to hell unless he wants to; the consequence is obvious. Does that not suffice to comfort you? Weep over past sins, make a good confession, sin no more in the future, and you will all be saved. Why torment yourself so? For it is certain that you have to commit mortal sin to go to hell, and that to commit mortal sin you must want to, and that consequently no one goes to hell unless he wants to. That is not just an opinion, it is an undeniable and very comforting truth; may God give you to understand it, and may He bless you."<br /><br />I'll take a look at that book.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13074607433136157415noreply@blogger.com